“I’m in my dining room in Derbyshire. I’ve been here for two weeks, mostly on my own – hence my excitement at seeing you both on this Zoom,” says Kim Sion, a creative consultant, who as we log on is fashioning herself a headscarf. “I’m ready to share quite a lot,” she beams. Meanwhile, Stephanie Nash, one half of influential design agency Michael Nash Associates is joining from her studio in Fitzrovia, London, and is wearing a striped shirt with her hair pulled back and heavy-framed specs. “Have you not washed your hair?” Nash quips. Sion duly ignores the jibe, but with a grin, and the topic switches to the brilliant pottery lesson Sion just had, which has left her feeling inspired. 

Sion’s perkiness and natural joie de vivre – a phrase that very few people genuinely embody – emanates from the screen. She started her career working for Vivienne Westwood, with a story that goes something like this: Sion called Westwood’s Worlds End store on Kings Road in London and asked to speak to Vivienne. Vivienne came to the phone and suggested Kim present herself at the shop immediately. She did and, bingo! That was it. Sion would eventually go on to represent and work with some of fashion’s leading image-makers, including David Sims, Glen Luchford, Katy England, Mario Sorrenti, Mert & Marcus and Venetia Scott. Since then, she has collaborated and consulted for various exciting enterprises, including the Pellicano Hotel group, AnOther Magazine and Nash’s agency, Michael Nash Associates. Sion’s other independent dalliances have included her food blog, A Mouthful Of Kim and her online shop, A Bag Full Of Kim. 

Nash trained at Saint Martin’s School of Art in London, now Central Saint Martins, and her first role was as a graphic designer at Island Records. Grace Jones, Eric B and Rakim, Tone Loc and Baaba Maal and the 4th & B’Way identity,  while her logo design for Run-DMC is now music legend. “I remember listening [to the music] and thinking how visually typographic it was,” Nash has previously said when asked about this particular piece of work. “Rap was very inspirational for me at that time: large, meaningful, hard-hitting words used with such power that I had not heard before.” In 1986 she launched Michael Nash Associates with her partner Anthony Michael, working initially with the likes of Massive Attack, Neneh Cherry and The Rolling Stones before a segue into fashion followed, with the pair attracting clients from Alexander McQueen, Harvey Nichols, Jil Sander and John Galliano, to Louis Vuitton, Marc Jacobs and the National Portrait Gallery, more recently creating the logo, identity and packaging for beauty brand Pat McGrath Labs.

For winter 2025, Sion makes her debut as a shoe designer for Le Monde Béryl, having created a gloriously fizzy capsule collection that features the Cherry Mule, Madison Boot and Sable Pump. When it came to designing the packaging, Sion naturally enlisted Nash and Michael. Together they landed on fantastic snakeskin-print boxes, black PVC shoe bags and a dual logo. “I’ve always appreciated really well-designed packaging, and creating something sustainable by virtue of the fact that it is special enough that people want to keep it and constantly reuse [it],” Sion says.  

During a particularly in-depth analysis of snakeskin, Sion and Nash take a tangent on the colour green, which they both love. “If left to Kim, everything would be green,” says Nash, smiling. “But it’s unlucky in China, so no-one ever lets us make things green,” moans Sion. Nash recounts how she kept making the Le Monde Béryl green more emerald, but Sion wanted it more yellow. And then Charli XCX’s Brat green took over the world. “I went to see her. She was amazing,” says Sion. “We should send her the boots!” And before you can say, “Let's begin,” they’ve begun.

Simon Chilvers: I don’t want to be a boring old Virgo but let’s revert to the beginning. How did this meeting of wonderful minds occur? Tell us how you met. 

Stephanie Nash: Kim had the most incredible photographic agency called Smile [Management]. I was working as art director at Island Records at the time, and always looking to find great photographers to shoot the artists we had – and that was always a bit of a challenge. I think I wanted Andrew Macpherson to do something, and I just rang, not knowing who Kim was, and sort of pleaded. I think that’s where it started. You sent loads of books, and then we used to chat all the time on the phone, but we spoke on the phone for a long time before we…

Kim Sion: I think we were just meant to be put together. We’re so similar, but so different.

Stephanie: We’re always very honest, and I think that’s part of it. We don’t hold back. I always just say it as it is, and I know she always tells me as it is. So it cuts a lot of crap. We just know where we stand. And if she says something, I know she really means it. Even though I might not appreciate it at the time, I do always go away and think about it. That honesty has meant that we’ve worked together in various guises for so long. What do you think, Kim? 

Kim: Well, I was going to say – maybe we should explain… After meeting Stephanie, I represented them – Anthony and Stephanie – at Smile. When I stopped Smile, I had a couple of years off, but then we got together again and I started managing them. Because I was freer in a way, and it grew into the three of us working more creatively together, as well as me managing contracts and things. 

Stephanie: Kim took more of a creative role as an art director and creative director in the work we were doing. Before that we very much worked a lot in music – and that’s a different thing. Then we did a little bit in fashion, and I think we had a mutual acquaintance, [the designer] Jasper Conran. From there on, Kim introduced us to lots of other people and we ended up working more in fashion, always using her great taste.

The thing with Kim is really her ability to put together an amazing team. I don’t know anything about make-up for example. She can visualise the photography, but also the choice of model, hair, everything. I think I’m a bit more of a nano-specialist. I’m a graphic designer by trade, and quite an art-school trained graphic designer, and [that was] back in the day when we did it in a particular way. It was more technical than it maybe is now. So Kim adds another facet to what we can do, which is great. It means we have more to offer. And also, I think it’s quite good being women and doing what we do, because there aren’t massive amounts of women doing this. 

Kim: I think it’s a perfect match. We always say when we have a meeting, “there’s someone there for everyone” – Stephanie, Anthony and me. We’re so coherent. We can sit in a briefing meeting with a client, and when they leave we both go “red” or “green” or “this” or “that” – it just works. Also, we were laughing this morning, because Stephanie and I will turn up for a meeting and we’ll always be dressed the same. Now we chat before a meeting just so we don’t turn up in the same thing. 

Stephanie: But you always change your mind. You always tell me one thing and then… [laughs]. 

Simon: How would you pinpoint each other’s strengths do you think? 

Stephanie: Kim underestimates her curation and her sense of the current zeitgeist. Culturally and intellectually, she has a really good take on what’s relevant right now. It’s very hard to say what Kim is “great at” without it sounding too big, but she really is great at that. She’s always modern and current, and as you get older it’s easier to sink into the comfort of what you know will work. She never does that. She’s the first to pick me up if I’m slipping into something that’s not current, not modern, or not culturally relevant. She’s a great gatekeeper of all that – and she keeps me on my toes.

Kim: I think that’s one thing that intrigues me about you and Anthony – because of your life situation [they care for their grown-up son who has a chronic illness] it’s not as though you’re out every day at museums. I don’t understand how two people can hold all this history and these cultural references within them. Yes, you’ve got the most insane book collection, but it’s so unreferenced – it’s just natural. It just comes out of you.

Stephanie: It’s a work process. Anthony and I are both quite old – we went to Central Saint Martins and did graphic design when there were only 35 people on the course. You learn how to research, how to use reference material and – most importantly – you learn a process of thinking. That’s what Saint Martins taught us. But you can also get very caught in an art-school process, which can end up working against you. Kim doesn’t have that, and that’s great – it’s freeing. I love working with people who are really good friends but also free your mind. 

I worked with Judy Blame [British stylist, art director, designer] for years, and it was a similar thing – he wasn’t art-school trained, but he had a free mind. Kim has that same free mind. There are no boundaries – no, “you can’t do that”, or “you can’t mix that typeface with that one.” Anything is possible. When you’ve been trained as a fashion designer, graphic designer, artist or sculptor, you tend to get stuck in a box. It’s great to work with people who aren’t in that box – it opens your head. It’s all about a way of thinking, really, and that’s what’s interesting.

Simon: When you start a new project, is there something you usually begin the process with? You were talking about research earlier – but when you get a brief from somebody, how does it begin?

Stephanie: Usually, if we’re working with Kim, we’ll meet the client together. Anthony and I are relatively shy – Kim is fabulous when she meets new people because she’s charming and warm. I tend not to talk very much and just sit and listen. We all listen to what the client wants, and then because we work with a lot of very visual people, particularly in fashion, who will want things to feel a certain way, we invite them to make a box of things they like. They’ll put together objects or images that feel right for their aesthetic. Then, when we start to work, we look at the box and ask, “Does what we’re doing fit in here or not?” I think it’s an unusual way of doing it. We also work in sketchbooks… 

Kim: The sketchbooks are the most beautiful things, Simon.

Stephanie: It’s very collaborative. Nobody has to stay in their lane – if Kim loves a font, she’ll say so; if I have an idea about casting, I’ll mention it. Everyone’s honest, and it opens up possibilities you wouldn’t find working alone. It’s an unusual work process, but it works for us.

We originally used sketchbooks just for ourselves – they were how we talked through ideas. We’d keep them and sometimes make them into elaborate visuals. Eventually, clients began to see them and loved them. With fashion designers it worked especially well – we were at Saint Martins at the same time as John Galliano, and you didn’t need to explain much. You could say, “You know that thing?” It’s trickier when working with people of different ages or from different disciplines, but even then, people appreciate and enjoy the sketchbooks. People showing you things they really love gives you a quick shortcut into their taste.

Kim: Like when Lee [Alexander] McQueen sent you a dead bird? 

Stephanie: Yes – literally in a jiffy bag. I opened it, and there it was, its insides taken out, the eye still there. We ended up photographing it, and it became the tissue paper for his packaging. He was amazing to work with. 

Kim: But that was the brilliant thing about asking them [Stephanie and Anthony] to do the Le Monde Béryl packaging for me, because my favourite thing is show and tell. So when we were doing it, Stephanie said, “You can do a box!” But I think I said about three words and we were done! 

Stephanie: I think we did it by the end of the first meeting! But then we spent about two weeks trying to find the right snakeskin. 

Kim: Yes, because we like to get into the details, Simon. 

Simon: Tell me more about getting the right snakeskin. 

Kim: We didn’t want the backbone part. 

Stephanie: No! And I had a bit of snakeskin I’d kept since the mid-80s that I particularly liked. But we’d moved studio, and I couldn’t find it. I was going mad trying to track it down. You can’t see what it’s like in here [the studio looks minimal and tidy], but we keep a lot of stuff. Eventually we found something close, worked with it, and got it done. Then last week, Anthony found the original piece with all this Spice Girls stuff – we’d used it for something Spice Girls-related years ago! 

Simon: What do you love about shoes? I’ve heard you both do. 

Kim: It’s been one of our obsessions for over 30 years! 

Stephanie: We talk about food and shoes most of the time. 

Simon: Good combo! What is it about shoes, though? 

Stephanie: They’re one of the only things you can see while you’re wearing them. I can’t see my shirt, or really see my trousers from where I’m sitting, but my shoes, I can look down and appreciate them.

Kim: Same. I think I dress quite plainly, but my shoes are always a bit odd. I love an interesting shoe.

Stephanie: And of course you can change a whole look with them! 

Kim: You can be wearing jeans, then put on your Westwood Rocking Horse boots (I’ve got so many of those), and it transforms the outfit. In a way, shoes show your personality and your bravado more than clothes – especially if you’re not particularly coquettish with your clothing. You can always jazz it up with a shoe.

Simon: Bonus points for using the word “coquettish” on a Monday. But do you start with the shoes or finish with them? When you’re getting dressed I mean? 

Kim: Finish.

Stephanie: Finish. And it depends on what you’ve got to do – if you’re going to walk somewhere, escalators, tubes etc. I also think now we’ve both got dogs, it changes your footwear for life!

Simon: And what about the food chat? Recipes? 

Stephanie: We both love cooking. I’ll be honest, Kim’s a really good cook – better than I am. But what Kim can do is orchestrate food out of nothing – just make something delicious with what she’s got in her fridge. I’m a bit more laboured over it, but she’ll always ring me and tell me what she’s having for lunch, and I’ll be sitting there with a Tesco meal deal. Even what she’s made for the dog sounds more delicious than what I’m having. I’ve always got food envy.

Kim: I did have a food blog, A Mouthful of Kim, that I started and it was quite hilarious, wasn’t it, Stephanie? I’ve always wanted to be a food reviewer – Jefferson Hack [curator and co-founder of Dazed Media] gave me a spot back in the day when he first started AnOther Magazine. 

I’d love to review restaurants because I’d be awful – I’d just tell them. Like, the minute I walked in and saw a square plate, “I knew it was a downward slope.” Or a glazed balsamic vinegar squirt – “it’s a no!” But with A Mouthful of Kim I reviewed restaurants for my own joy and put out recipes. I loved it, but I was quite early on with food blogging and it just got ridiculous, so I stopped. Then it became [online store] A Bag Full of Kim, and now there’s A Kiln Full of Kim – I’ve kept the brand going.

Simon: I’d actually love to hear both of your creative origin stories. Where did your creative spirit begin? Do you have memories of drawing or seeing art? Was there a fabulous grandmother, or something like that?

Stephanie: For me it was my mum. I grew up on a farm – very rural, literally in the middle of nowhere – and I was an only child until I was about seven. My mother was the most amazing dressmaker: not trained, but she made all my clothes and involved me in the process of choosing the shape, the pattern, the fabric. It was always exciting. She had, and still has, the most incredible eye for colour and that inspired me. I started drawing clothes, but I was never as good at sewing as she was. I never thought I could do fashion because I couldn’t make the clothes as well as she could, and she wasn’t going to make anything I’d drawn.

Kim: Both my parents were incredibly stylish– they always looked fantastic. My dad, every Saturday, would take us to an art gallery to see an exhibition. He was really into photography, my mum totally into clothes and doing up the house. They both had great taste. My mum was an incredible cook. They were both creative in their own way, but more through their eyes – which is how I think I am.

Simon: Was it quite clear to both of you from a young age that you’d do something like this for your job or career? 

Kim: I still don’t know what my jobs have been or what I’m doing now, so that’s hard. I always knew I wanted to do something creative.

Stephanie: I didn’t.

Kim: I was an agent, but in a very different form.

Stephanie: Oh, absolutely – you were massively creative in choosing the people you did. You picked people who weren’t established photographers, like Mario [Sorrenti]. You made them into great photographers, got them the right jobs, put them in the right place.

Kim: I used to be very involved in the process – helping with ideas, going to client meetings, being involved in editing.

Stephanie: That’s creative, Kim. It’s like A&R in a band – you made the right record. You also knew what jobs not to do, which is just as important.

Simon: There’s something about both of you that’s quite behind-the-scenes. It’s not easy to find things about either of you online. Is that deliberate?

Kim: I don’t know what it is. Stephanie and Anthony never had any sort of website until about a month ago. It was always an ongoing argument.

Stephanie: I think we’ve always wanted to be relatively discreet. We worked with musicians first, then fashion designers. A lot of the time we tried to do it as if they were the art director – what would they do? Obviously, they’re making the record or the collection, so they can’t do that themselves. So if you’re working with Galliano, you think, “What would John do?” Then take that hat off and think about McQueen. You get inside their head so they feel they own it. I remember Marc Jacobs saying he loved how discreet we were, under the radar. There’s a level of respect for the people you work with – it’s quite old-fashioned. Maybe we should have shouted more about what we’ve done, but I like that respect. Even with musicians, whether it’s The Rolling Stones or Massive Attack, it’s a two-way conversation. We try to make the work look as though they’ve done it. I remember McQueen once putting my sketchbook in something for Amex and saying, “I did that,” and I was flattered. I think it’s also about avoiding being typecast – if people think you only design record sleeves for rap, they wouldn’t hire you for Louis Vuitton. Staying under the radar keeps you adaptable and stops you being put in a box.

Kim: That’s why I find it impossible when people say, “What have you done?” I’ve done so many things, and half of them, people don’t know about.

Stephanie: But I also think, Kim, we’re always onto the next because we’re always excited. Neither of us really looks back at what we’ve done; we’re always looking forward to the next project and the next exciting thing. Anthony says that it’s also because we were brought up before “me” culture.

Kim: I also think I like the privacy. 

Simon: Where does inspiration come from do you think? 

Stephanie: I think we’re very good when we’re physically together and go to see a client’s space. You get so much from looking, seeing and meeting people that you just don’t get remotely. Kim might say, “Did you see her shoes? That vase? The colour of that bag?” You put all those things together. Remotely, you don’t get the same clues – it’s shortcuts into understanding people. 

Kim knows a lot of amazing people, and we’ve been lucky to work with very like-minded clients. When you get some that aren’t like that, you realise – it’s not so easy, not so fun, and it’s going to be a slog. A lot of the time you are only as good as your client. If they won’t do something, no matter how much you try to persuade them, you can’t force it. It’s not art – you can’t just do it your way.

Simon: Fashion has clearly been significant in both of your careers. You’ve worked with some of the most important people in that field – Westwood, Galliano. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about the fashion industry?

Kim: When I was younger, fashion was much more considered and beautiful. I don’t really understand fashion anymore. I was reading a piece which Jo Ellison [editor of HTSI and deputy editor of FT Weekend] wrote, and I’ve been thinking the same thing – how all the companies now have pushed prices so high they’re only catering to a super-rich demographic. It’s so inaccessible that the whole industry has changed. Before, it was fascinating – it was beautiful, it was an art form, it was wondrous. The shows, the imagery – so much went into it. It was a deeply creative thing.

Stephanie: I agree. The designers we’ve had the pleasure to work with are artists with creative control. Now it feels like they’re being pulled back, with commercial accountants or whoever making decisions. Creativity feels stifled. I don’t know how the Gallianos or McQueens could exist in the same way now as they did then. Of course, there are always talented people coming out of art school…

Kim: Maybe creativity in fashion is just different now, because the way people wear clothes has changed so much. If I see an evening dress now, I think, where on earth would you wear it? The world has shifted. But we’ve been so lucky to be let into the worlds of the designers we’ve worked with. 

Simon: I do want to ask you about the John Galliano newspaper print which you created, and which has become, I hate the word iconic, but you know what I mean. How did you all know this was going to work? And become such a ‘thing’? 

Stephanie: That story’s quite interesting. I knew John vaguely but hadn’t really worked with him, though I adored his early clothes. I was working in my big sketchbooks, doing lots of various ideas and I was playing around with newspaper. Judy [Blame] was in the studio, walked past my desk, and just went, “It’s the newspaper.” Judy had that zeitgeist instinct, and he knew John. The newspaper was just one of many visuals we did. But John picked it really quickly, more quickly than anyone I’ve ever worked with. Normally, you’d go away, tweak it, change the colour – but he didn’t change anything. If you saw the original mock-up, it’s exactly the same: the logo, the colour. We even designed a John Galliano Gazette. He didn’t tweak a single thing, which was remarkable and respectful. Designers nearly always change something, even just a shade of white or the height of a letter, but not this.

As a design, the Galliano newspaper had legs: it could be turned into fabric and reimagined. We even used elastic bands for the bag handles, so when you walked, the bag bounced. John loved that. You just know when something has that quality, it has the capacity to move into other mediums and evolve.

Simon: Kim, did you have that same feeling with photographers on set, knowing, “this picture is going to be the shot”?

Kim: Yes. When I see something, I get a feeling inside I can’t explain. I could look at 20 pictures from a shoot – that’s why I love editing – and immediately know the strongest image. Whether it was Louis Vuitton, Calvin Klein, whoever, you always have that sense of the one. The great thing is, they appreciated and trusted that. Sometimes even now someone will call and say, “Can you look at these pictures and help me choose?” I feel so honoured to be asked. It’s a feeling more than anything. I can’t put it into words.

Stephanie: That’s a skill. You don’t realise how rare it is, you think everyone can do it, but not everyone can.

Simon: Anyway, easy question next [laughs]. What is art? 

Kim: Well, I don’t know… The thing with art, I suppose, is a person expressing themselves through whatever medium. But for me, the most annoying thing is when you see those programmes about artists and you have the talking heads sitting there trying to decipher a picture of Francis Bacon or whoever. It really winds me up because I think, you do not know what is going on in that person's mind. You might look at that subject and make up your own opinion, but it really annoys me when they try and get into someone's head. If that makes sense. To me, art is expression. Does anyone agree with that?

Stephanie: I think it’s really personal. It’s a difficult question. Technically, it’s when it causes a reaction within somebody, and that’s what it is. We don’t necessarily like the same thing. I might be drawn initially to an aesthetic – whether that’s colour or shape. Then there’s the intellectual part, which brings the aesthetic round to make the full circle. That’s what makes it great, makes it experiential, makes it something that moves you or changes the way you think. Great art, for me, makes me question the way I think about something, makes me look at it differently. All the artists I like do that – they make me question, they make me ask myself something.

Kim: Sorry, I answered that in completely the wrong way.

Stephanie: That’s what it is to you. If we both look at the same picture, what’s so brilliant is we might have completely different reactions. That’s based on our backgrounds, what we’ve seen before, and everything we’ve been through. That’s what makes it powerful.

Simon: Do you think great design is different?

Stephanie: Yes. Design is about answering a problem. I’m not an artist because I’ve got nothing personal to say – I love solving problems, especially other people’s problems, and solving them in a way that looks interesting and appeals to them. But it’s their problem. I can happily step back from that. Designers, I think, are like that – it’s not about me, it’s about this person and what they want to say. That’s why I became a designer and why I still enjoy it. In another life I think I might have liked to be a doctor.

Kim: What about a product designer?

Stephanie: No, too restrictive. There’s always got to be a product. Graphic design is about your thinking process; it’s the broadest discipline. Fashion is tighter, sculpture is tighter… graphics can be anything you want it to be. 

Kim: It’s interesting, I wouldn’t have thought of it as problem-solving. For me, it’s all about the aesthetic: how does that thing look?

Simon: What have you both been inspired by recently?

Kim: That’s so hard for me because I feel like I see so much.

Stephanie: I don’t. I’m very edited – but I’ve just got into something I really love: a performance artist, theatre-maker and writer who amplifies non-binary and trans voices, Travis Alabanza. I went to a performance at Charleston [the one-time home and studio of the painters Vanessa Bell and Duncan Grant] where they’d written a monologue that was performed by Dylan Mulvaney, the trans actress, that was incredible. Travis also wrote a play called Burgerz and a book called None of the Above, which is a brilliant exploration of non-binary and trans thought. It’s incredible – it blows your mind on gender, on misgendering, on how we perceive identity. The way they write is remarkable, completely untrained, no art school, but a natural voice.

Kim: Lanzarote. César Manrique, the architect and artist. We went to every one of his buildings in Lanzarote. I’ve never been so inspired – well, that’s a lie, but it’s my most recent inspiration. Everything is built into volcanic caves. His eye for furniture, the way he uses the landscape, it’s exquisite. There’s a lookout point, coffee bars, an amphitheatre, swimming pools carved into rock. He even designed a house for Omar Sharif, which Sharif [allegedly] lost the day he moved in, in a card game. It’s unbelievable. I’m flabbergasted at how little people talk about it.

Simon:  Here’s the question we ask everyone. How would you define beauty?

Kim: I don’t think you can define beauty. That’s my answer.

Stephanie: I think beauty has an imperfection. You tire of perfection quickly. An edge or a flaw makes it last and keeps you engaged. I’ve been thinking about this while working on a skincare product. I’m horrified by what’s happening to young people’s faces – doctors changing people beyond recognition. It makes me insecure when I meet someone if I’m unsure whether it’s “them” or not, especially because I have poor facial recognition. We were trying the other day to think of a woman who’s naturally beautiful – not had heaps of work done – and it’s surprisingly hard.

Kim: I try to see beauty in everything – life especially.

Stephanie: I still think imperfection. I prefer a porcelain plate with a crack than one without.

Kim: That’s interesting. In my pottery studio, people spend weeks perfecting bowls. My view? If you want a perfect cereal bowl, go to IKEA. I sell my pieces because they’re random and imperfect, and the more I work, the more I make each one different. That’s my story – nothing perfect – so when I’m gone, someone will discover my collection.

Stephanie: We do share a love of ceramics. I always wanted to be a ceramicist at art school, but I became super allergic to the clay. I had to pick something else. But I’ve always loved porcelain. Look at Edmund de Waal or Rupert Spira – the porcelain’s beautiful but each piece is wonky. Perfectly wonky.

Simon: Perfectly wonky, well, that seems like a very good place to end. Thank you both!